Gender Specific Human Rights

One day, representatives from the Shan Women's Action Network (SWAN) came to Loi Kaw Wan on a regular visit. SWAN oversees various projects in Loi Kaw Wan, such as a sewing program for village women to earn money making clothes, and a kindergarten. SWAN works hard to help women on both sides of the northern Thai-Burma border. The women need it. Life is very difficult and abuse is common, whether women are still living in Burma or have moved to work (usually illegally) in Thailand.

As part of its visit to Loi Kaw Wan SWAN planned to hold a meeting for all interested women in the village. There, they could get news from Shan state, hear about the latest atrocities, discuss issues of work, family, sexual health, pregnancy, rape and women's rights. Two visiting female Canadian doctors were invited to participate. Reps were especially interested in sharing information about legislation in Burma that granted soldiers a “license to rape” women from specific ethnic groups.

The women who came varied. Old and young, some were shy, some apathetic, others outspoken, some keen to find out how to make their husbands happy without having anymore children and some clearly just happy to be doing something different.

Loi Kaw Wan's men grumbled. “What about men's rights?” asked Hsur, the school vice principal. “We have no club, no one comes to talk about our rights. Our life is hard too.” The answer was, as it usually is to that question, that men get every other club. In matters of “human rights,” men seem to collect on them first, while women continue to suffer. And internally, not always internally, we believe that they are only complaining because they fear uppity women; or simply fear the repercussions of women obtaining equality.

But even if women suffer more, admitting or addressing it does little to alleviate the men's suffering. Hsur was right. There is no similar club, no venue to unashamedly check the normalcy of their marriage, determine if there are particular rights that, for them, are disproportionately violated or escape even for two hours the drudgery of their lives.

While the women in the sewing project rightly complained that the town commander had forced them to sew army uniforms for 50 cents apiece, the men were compelled to wear them, and tour through the jungle in search of Burmese soldiers, or risk being run out of the village. This is a serious threat, since the village is an IDP camp. It was founded by refugees fleeing Burmese pogroms. To leave the safety of the rebel-held town could mean punishment, even death in Burma, or a life of wage slavery and racism in Thailand.

Rather than offer statistics-laden arguments about which gender suffers more, the men deserve to be acknowledged. Brushing them off for possibly suffering less will create resentment and frustration on top of the problems they already face. I agree with Hsur. The men should have something too. Something that can be used to explain the women's specific problems, why they have advocacy groups, and most importantly can be used to help the men address their problem with the same methods women are given. Surely they too would benefit from the chance to share their troubles with a group of peers. It would likely save the women from many men's suspicion that their wives and sisters are getting undeserved benefits and gossip sessions.

Dr. Ulrich Hulhne & Acupuncture

An Interview with Dr. Ulrich Hulhne of Germany, at the Mae Tao clinic on the Thai-Burma border. Hulhne worked at Mae Tao as an acupuncture instructor.

How many patients do you have?

About 30 in a day. 600, 700 patients in a month.

What's your background?

I'm a GP. That's does everything and knows nothing. My medical studies were in Colombo in Sri Lanka. I came to know a Sri Lankan professor of rheumatology, that was when I was 44 years old. And I said 'I would have liked to do medicine, but now it's too late.' And he said 'why? You are young enough and dynamic enough. I'll help you to get in.' So I went to Colombo to do my studies. I finished the studies and became an MD, only for the Commonwealth. I'm not supposed to treat in Germany.

In between I went to China for 9 months and studied acupuncture because this professor had been sent by his government to China very much earlier to find if acupuncture would be a good alternative for a third world country like Sri Lanka. And it was. And he said 'you should go to help me se this up.'

Is it more common in Sri Lanka now?

Absolutely. See, you don't need any medicines. It doesn't have any side effects and the way of treatment is in many ways much more successful.

How does it work better than Western medicines?

You know that is a question which is not solved until now, though Western scientists as well as Chinese scientists are trying to find out why acupuncture works. And they can't come to any conclusion. The fact is that it works, and the Chinese have developed that over 4,000 years. So it is not something that can be cracked.

Can acupuncture be used to treat the pain around the wound of an amputee?

Yes, even phantom pain. We can treat that and cure that phantom pain. And we can also anaesthetize for big operations. See, I have written a book called Acupuncture. This was taken in a hospital in Colombo, during a hysterectomy in Colombo. See, she is fully aware of what is happening, she is drinking and she is talking to the nurse. There is no pain during or after the operation.

Is there any trial and error?

There are 10 per cent of all patients who do not respond to acupuncture, and you do not know before who. We treat patients and we do not realize until after three or four days there is no reaction. We tell the patients we are sorry, you are one of these ten per cent and we cannot help you. See that is another open question, nobody knows why it doesn't work.

When you came to the Mae Tao Clinic three months ago what was the state of the acupuncture clinic?

It was down more or less to zero. There was a lady from that organization, there, see it? North American—something. She was here only for short periods and she was teaching the basics of traditional Chinese medicine, and some that she was teaching were absorbed in the clinic later. For example here in the surgery. When I came here and saw that only one gave acupuncture I thought that this would be a good opportunity to build up an acupuncture board. We had a gathering of all those who were trained and I said 'would you like that we continue that?' And so there were eight fellows, two girls, six boys, and I was teaching them in the afternoons and in the mornings we started treating. We started with two or three patients a day, and now you see there are 30.

Is it a very precise practice?

There are very precise points. Every point is identified, and they have to learn that. I have taught them about 350. Now, see how we do it. This is the name of a patient that we treat, and we compose a so-called cocktail of points. These are the abbreviations which everybody here should understand. This is the DU channel. This is the urinary-bladder channel. This is extra points, stomach channel, gall bladder channel and lung channel and the numbers. So if I write this cocktail they have to know where to find these points.

Do patients ever protest against the pain?

No, there is no pain. If you sit here and watch for a while you will see. You saw how thin the needles were.

How far in do they go?

It depends on the point were you put it. For instance the point on sciatica. You put it in the buttocks, and the point there is this deep about (he holds his fingers about six inches apart) to the sciatic nerve. See these are the longest needles. They go right in.

Can you buy these needles here in Mae Sot?

In Mae Sot nobody knows about acupuncture. I went to a pharmacy at the beginning and asked 'do you have needles?' He said 'needles? For what?' I said 'acupuncture.' He said 'acu-what?' He's never heard anything. So we see that we get donations. I get them through donations.

The first set through that organization, but they stopped supplying us, so the next lot I got from an Italian organization because they have an NGO here. And we treated a lady from this NGO for migraine. You know what migraine is? The most terrible headache that you can imagine. This woman, this young lady had one attack every week. And when she had it for two days after she could not work. Be it for the side effects of the terrible pain killers she had to take, the highest doses and the strongest doses you can imagine for migraine. Paracetamol and such nonsense does not help.

And she came here and she turned 'round and she said 'I feel vomitious.' And I said 'better do that outside. And she came in and we gave her the needles and after five minutes she fainted. That was needle shock. We have that off and on. Especially when patients get the first time needles and we give three or four needles. The average they get is 15 needles.

She laid down for five minutes and she got up and said 'miracle, my headaches have gone.' Totally gone after five minutes of treatment. So she said 'I will go back to office and if I can continue working I will phone you.' Because normally after an attack she goes home. And she phoned me from the office and said she's so well she does not have to go home. And that was since the beginning of February and in that time she has not any attack. So the boss was so happy that he donated us 15,000 needles. This is how we replenish our needles.

Do you have any desire to go into Rangoon or work within Burma legally?

No, here I can work much better, much more.

Yee Tip on SSA and amputees

Leung Yee Tip is a Shan who currently lives in Chiang Mai, Thailand, where he works for the Shan Helath Committee. Among his many projects he supervises an amputee prosthetics clinic in northern Thailand. This is a transcript of a short interview on the subjects with him, February 2010.

Do you have an age in which people are allowed to work?

An age?

Yes, like children, or an age?

We don't use children.

How old are you in Shan to not be a child?

Eighteen. And also in the army too is 18.

How old is too old to be in the army?

Forty-five. Is mean that they can join between 18 and 45, and they can stay until 60 or 65. And also sometime, some of the children when they come with the SSA soldier they want to be a soldier, but we just send them to the school. Because some of their parents have been killed by the SPDC so they want to join the army.

Who is the funder for this farm project?

They is funder from CPI from America. (the anti-landmine organization Clear Path International)

How many amputees are there?

Here at this camp has 37 amputees. And then we choose from them who want to do this farming. And then we form a small company to look after this farm.

How did they become amputees?

Most of them are old soldiers from the MTA (Muang Tai Army, the predecessor to the current rebel SSA).

Land mines?

Land mines, and some in battle.

Do you get many new amputees?

Not, I did see a new one, some of them I think are new.

Does the SSA have people go out to look for land mines like in Loi Kaw Wan?

No here it's dangerous for them. If you don't know technically exactly how to search for land mines.

Htam Khur - On the Shan

An abridged version of an interview with the school principal of a Shan IDP camp, February 2010.

What's your name?

My name is Htam Khur, Sai Htam Khur. I'm 35 years old.

Are you Shan?

Yes.

Tell me about the Shan and Burmese.

Shan people, we have our kingdom in the past, and Burmese people they also have their kingdom in the past. And these two, our kings, they are always fighting. If the Burmese win the Shan people need to live under control of the Burmese, and if the Shan people win again the Burmese people need to live under control of the Shan people.

Burma became the colony of British in 1885, and Shan become colony of British in 1887. At that time Shan recognize their people by themself. If the British want to order the Shan to do something they just order to the Shan people directly, not to the Burmese.

When the time that our people need to get freedom from the British the Burmese they want to get the freedom also. General Aung San came to the meeting of the Shan people. If we will take the freedom together we will get the freedom very quickly from the British like that. And so some of the Shan people did not want to get the freedom together with the Burmese people, but some of the Shan leaders think that if we get together we can get the freedom quickly.

So at that time we took the freedom together with the Burmese, but we have agreement. We will organize the country together, during 10 years. After 10 years if the Shan people don't want to be in the union the Burmese, we can separate off by them to be Shan State. But, in 1962 General Nye Win became the dictator and take every power from the people and so until now we are under the Burmese.

Do the Shan still want to be a separate country?

Some of the Shan people want to get the freedom, but most of the people want the rights, the human rights. Rangoon is well developed and Shan state is not. But everything like the teak or the stone, they get it from Shan state or from the other states, but the states are not organized. And also the roads to go to Rangoon, from Daunggyi to Ga Lo the roads are not so good. But from Ga Lo to Rangoon is big road.

Where are you from?

I am from Taunggyi. I live in Taunggyi until 2003. When I finished university I get misunderstanding with my older brother, and I run away from my home to Tachilek. I heard they (Loi Kaw Wan) need a teacher to teach the children. The children are orphans, and people here is like the refugee and they are running away from the SPDC to build the village. So, I join with them and come here. Before I came here I am a shop keeper.

Are you a soldier in the rebel Shan State Army here?

Sometimes we are similar like the soldier, you know? Helping them. But really we are not. I am not a soldier.

Can you go back to inner Burma?

Yes, I can go back, but very dangerous because they (Burmese government officials) will ask me the information about this area. And even I answer them they will not believe on me, and they will put me into the prison. I just organize the school and the orphanage. About the (rebel Shan) army, I don't know many things about the army because I am not a soldier, you know? But the Burmese soldier will not believe on me.

How many students and orphans are here?

298 students. Now we have just 65 orphans.

Where do they come from?

The orphans are coming from near this area. In 1999 the SPDC (Burmese government) forced the people to move from their village, and when they run into the border they are far away from their father and mother and their father and mother don't know where are they. And some of their father and mother getting disease in the forest. And that time, if the people walking in the jungle met with the SPDC soldier, Burmese soldier, without question they shooting to the people walking in the jungle. Like that. So some people die during their running to the border.

Is it better now?

Now is better because not so much are fled from their village. Just in 1996 until 2001, very worse for the Shan people. Because at that time Burmese soldier force the people move from the village to live close to town, and the villager they don't have the money to stay near the town and don't know what kind of job they can do. So they are running to the border.

Tell me about LKW

LKW is an IDP camp. IDP is the internally displaced people. If they stay inside Burma the SPDC will force them to be porter and if they live inside Thailand they don't have the ID card. If they live among the SSA (rebel Shan State Army) the SPDC cannot come and force them to anything. And also the Thai people cannot make the trouble to them also. Yes, is small place.

Is the SPDC here in town?

No, just near our area they have their guard. And they cannot come into the village. But spy, we don't know about the spy. Sometimes spy can be Shan people. And can be Lahu, can be Akha, we don't know. Can be anyone. But even the people who want to come and visit the village if they want to like stay for one night or two night who will receive them to stay in their house, the village committee have to know about their background.

How many people live in LKW?

I heard from the village committee they said over 2,800 live here.

Do you think the SPDC could attack LKW?

Yes. Because it's a resistance group area. If the SPDC want to disappear the SSA, they will attack us.

Do you think it's dangerous here?

Not dangerous. I have lived here for seven years and I have seen no fighting during seven years.

Back in Shan state, in Burma, what does the SPDC do to the Shan?

Now? Now in northern Shan state is very worse for the people. I have a, sometimes I call to my house with my mobile, and sometimes I'm asking about the people who live inside Shan. They said northern Shan state is very worse for the people because now is like ceasefire group and SPDC. SPDC want the ceasefire group to be the border guard, ceasefire group did not want to be the border guard. Ceasefire is not over, just depend on the Burmese. The Burmese want to go around all the ceasefire groups, and they sent their troops every way to the ceasefire group. If the Burmese soldier group is going into the forest they need a porter.

Why do they force civilians to act as porters?

They don't want to carry their things, you know? Because they want to disappear the ceasefire group, and if they are matched against the ceasefire group they want the porters to be their cover. Put the porter in front of them and the ceasefire group cannot shoot them, you know? Ten years ago the same thing, you know? When the Burmese attacked the Muang Tai Army in Hong Mung they bring many Shan people, Shan porter from Shan state. And cover in front of them. And put the porter go first, put their uniforms on the porters and force the porter to go first. The porter, mine, pew! Like that. Is for them, for save their lives they get many porter for them.

Did the MTA know those were porters, not soldiers?

The first they don't know. But when the first attack is finished, when they clean the attacking area they saw the people who die are the Shan people. It's very hard for the MTA to attack the Burmese soldier.

What year did this problem begin between the Burmese government and the Shan?

1947. But at that time most of the Shan people, most of the Shan leaders believe on the Burmese. After the 10-year agreement no Shan people believe on the Burmese.

Are the problems in Shan state worse now, or better, or the same?

The same. You know, during 1962 until 1990, that time the Burmese soldier they are force the people move from the village and burn everything in the village. And next let the people to stay in their village again. And after one and two years force the people out again and burn the village again like that.

The reason why they do like that is to destroy everything of the Shan people, like the history book. Because our culture we'd write our history book and put at the monastery. Who can bring everything? Can't bring everything, so after we move from the village they burn everything. And if we come to stay again we bring back that again and put at the monastery. And for us to move again, we cannot bring most of – you know? And we lose the history book and culture also. And if we mix, like, SPDC get married with the Shan woman, the salary will get higher.

Why is the Burmese government doing this to the Shan? What is the goal?

They want to genocide the Shan people like that. I have heard from the Burmese when I was a university student, “next 10 year the Shan people will be disappeared. No Shan people will speak Shan language,” they said. Some of the Burmese soldier they said like that. When I was a university student I don't know how to speak Shan language.

Not even at home?

Just little. Just get understanding. But when I need to explain something in Shan I can't, just explain in Burmese language.

What language do people speak in Daunggyi?

Mostly is Burmese language. And now, even now my nephew if I call to my house he can't speak Shan. Just Burmese language to me.

------formal interview ends. While walking to the school kitchen Htam Khur recounts how he made a point to learn Shan in university. After graduation he was contracted to teach for three months in a Shan village. After several weeks the local SPDC captain told him to stop the classes and return home. Htam Khur refused. Over a number of days the captain became more enraged at Htam Khur's refusal to leave. The situation came to a head one evening as he was walking home, and the captain stopped him in the street.----- At this point in the story I turned the recorder back on.

'Leave now.'

'No.' I said 'no' again. Yeah he is very angry. He feel very angry and take out a gun, and point to me, you know? And I still said no. We are talking is very loud, very loud. And the villagers heard that and I think 20 or 30 villagers running out from their home, and we two, and they surround all of us. And the Captain cannot do anything. He is very angry and he said to me “now I cannot do you anything, but in the future I'm not sure.” Again, you know?

And I'm coming back with the villager to my rest-house. And the villager said, “hey teacher, this is a problem. You need to go back.”

“No, I had the promise with all of you. I need to stay here. Even he is not allow me to stay with you I will stay here for three months. Because of the promise, and teaching is still running, not finished yet.” And the village is very worried for me.

But I'm a little bit lucky, you know? The battalion from the Daunggyi base, they visit the village. This battalion leader we are know each other. And he come and visit me with the Captain. This captain very afraid of me that time, you know? If I say, “this captain he doing to me.”

You told?

No no, I didn't. The Major, he's the leader of the battalion. I didn't tell to the Major anything. And the Captain feel a little bit good.

And the next day he come and visit me. The Captain, “hey hey, sorry, everything that I do on you.” If they have some people afraid they are very kind people, you know?

But the Major heard about us from the villager. And when the major go back to Loi Lem base he ordered to the Loi Lem leader, the Loi Lem leader changing the Captain to the other area.

Gwan Kham, Loi Tai Leng Orphan

22 years old. Recounts being 11 years old when his village was attacked and he became separated from his family. He now works as a teacher and English-Shan interpreter in Loi Tai Leng. -February 2010

“I was in jungle, I went to look after buffalo, and then I come back to my village I don't see anybody, just only like the burnt house.

Did you try to find them?

No. I was very afraid about this. So I went to the jungle, and suddenly the military, about the SSA, come to the near our village and I saw them. And because they can speak Shan, right? So they ask me 'why you stay here alone?' 'I don't know. Because my family no here.'

I didn't know anything, but I want to go. So they ask me 'do you want to go with us? OK, we have food, we have everything for you,' like this. I got here when I was 12 years old. I stayed in the jungle with the military for five months.

Why didn't they take you here fast?

Because there is very bad weather. They cannot come here, because the Salween is like, flooding.

Is it correct that you were alone for four weeks, and then the SSA came and found you?

Yes.

Do you know if your family's still alive?

I don't know right now. Maybe until now they are, I don't know. Maybe they already go away from our world.

What did you do when you came here?

Go to school.

Had you had much school before?

No. I didn't have money to attend the school until I was 11, when I was in the Shan State.

How did you learn English so well?

I like to learn grammar, and I love to go to another person when I saw foreigner, I would like to talk with them.

Are you still in school?

I'm finished and now I'm working in the school.

What do you teach?

Before, English. And right now history, because I love to teach history.

Do you get paid to teach?

Mm-hm. Two thousand (baht) per month. ($67)

Do you think you'll ever go back to Shan State?

I think so.

Would you like to?

Yes.”

Loi Tai Leng Clinic

Loi Tai Leng Clinic interview transcript with Head Medic Paw Shar Gay, February 2010

How many medics do you have here?

Here we have two medics, and the other people is me, Ba Tay is finished from Dr. Cynthia's clinic and then the other is finished the Siesta Blue training. Siesta Blue training Community Health Worker. Total staff at the clinic is 22 people.

How many patients do you get here per day?

One day is maybe 20, sometimes 30.

Are they mostly from Loi Tai Leng, or from inside Burma too?

Some people is from outside, some people is from here. But mostly IPD (In-Patient Department) is outside.

Loi Tai Leng's problem is ARI (acute respiratory infection), also skin infection is high. And rainy season is rain all the time, four months no sun. Sometimes is maybe one week or two week sun is come out. You know, our dress we make the fire wood and the fire make dry. The sun cannot make dry. And then UTI (urinary tract infection) is become high.

What do you do to help people prevent it?

Every year we plan to prevent it. Our clinic do like the home visit. One month we will going to section and home by home, give education. And then give information and vitamin A.

Do you see vitamin A deficiency here?

Sometimes we see like one year maybe one case or two case.

Do you always have enough medicine?

Enough medicine? Yeah is enough. Before the medicine did not enough and then we ask more money to buy the medicine. And the Partner did not came in here and also backpack, FBR (Free Burma Rangers) did not come in here. From outside, we take medicine here to outside and go and give the people who live outside Loi Tai Leng, like mobile team, and then our medicine did not enough.

The donor says 'Paw Shar Gay, you say every year medicine did not enough. How about this year, this is enough?' Last year he come back. And then I said, 'yes, before medicine did not enough, but this year enough.'

And then he laughing and said 'why medicine did enough this year?'

'Backpack is coming here, and then FBR is coming here and go outside outside, and same the Partner group is outside and then our medicine we use here not outside.' So here is enough for me.

Are there any backpack medics here?

Backpack medics is four, five people. Yes, sometimes if they come back from inside they coming here. If he going inside maybe two months or one month he will come back here.

Are people's gardens here big enough that their nutrition is good?

Yeah, we see now better than years before. And then we can get vegetables. Big garden (in reference to the sponsored one in the valley) but the vegetables is not enough. Some the shopping go down to Burma part and buy vegetable. Because you know here we can plant in the rainy season. This season no water. We can't plant, we have to buy outside. But in the rainy season is enough. We can buy here and sell here, in the garden. It's like, how do you say, save the money for us. But in the dry season is cannot save the money.

Do you have a computer?

Yeah. One computer is not so good. Internet if we going to the leader's house and check the Internet. But our computer is maybe five years. Is working very very slowly.

Do you see health here looks better now than when you began as a medic 14 years ago?

When I arrived here in 1999, no clinic. In 2000 one clinic. The people, the leader here is building the one clinic, like small like this, this room. We treat the villager, also the military. We treat both. And then clinic is very small, in Section 3.

At that time the people is not know about health. Not health education, they did not know about this so much. They did not know about the family planning. You know in the year 2000 we delivered 120 babies. At that time population is maybe 1,000. And now population is 2,600. More people here but the people know about the education and then they can provide and think. And this year is 42 babies delivered. Very different.

Then you know about the vaccine? Before two year, three year they don't want to receive the vaccine immunization, because the people said if they get the immunization her children is become sick and then is painful, cannot sleeping enough for the night time, because the baby is crying. Very painful, they don't want to come. The health worker is work hard, like go down and give education like this. Because immunization is very very important. But many people they also tell me, 'before we did not receive, we never receive vaccine. But we alive until now. We did not get other disease like you say.'

They ask me and then I answer, 'before is like the before. Before is the disease is not like this. So your baby, how do you say? Like, you is very old, and then you will dead. Your baby is growing and then in the future you will not see. Your baby, maybe your baby can get some anything you did not know about. If you receive the vaccine maybe the vaccine can help like the infection is coming less. Not 100 per cent. Maybe 50 per cent. Explain the parent about the vaccine. And then now, if we looking in the register book the vaccine is become improved. And many children is receive the full course of the vaccine, immunization. For me I think is improved.

And then the last one is education about diarrhoea. We need to boiling the water and then drinking. If you boiling the water, water will be safe for our life. Cannot get the disease easy like the diarrhoea, something like that. Washing the hands for you going to toilet, but if after you finish the toilet after you come back wash your hands before eating.

One man is very old, and then he ask me, because we give toilets, we have the budget for building the toilets. We ask to building the toilets and one man he ask me, 'Sa Mah,' they call me Sa Mah, 'I never believe about this because now my age is 70 and I never boiling the water and drinking the water because if you boiling the water, the water is not sweet. If you go to taking in the river and then drink, is sweet. And then sometimes we did not go in the toilet, we go in the forest. Sometimes we going pass stool in the river,' he said like this.

And then I'm about this question thinking, because I cannot answer yet. I thinking, and then I remember my Sir tell me that if you go in the community you will get many many problems. The people will ask you many questions. And then I remember. I ask that man, 'OK, you say is true. The water you carry from the river is sweet. If you boiling then is not so sweet, right, true. But at that time,' I call him uncle, 'Uncle, at that time how many household at that village?'

And then he answer me 'not so much.'

'And then you see now, many people in this village. And then if the one people going to pass stool at the river, and another people is going to pass, it will put a lot of things in the water. It will be clouding. If only Uncle you going to pass in the river maybe the river will pass stool with the river, but many people not so good.

And the pig, they did not make the pen, they did not have a pen for a pig, they will free for the pig. And then maybe that pig will go pass stool at the river. And then maybe the rabbit, some rabbit is move down to the river. And then this water is sweet. So then uncle is drinking some stool from the river, so become sweet. So that uncle not believe me. Only uncle can pass in the river, but for the other people I think it's not so good if you go down to pass in the river or in the forest. You need to build the toilet. The toilet it will save the stool and then not so smell.

James Fu on the SPDC

Loi Kaw Wan Vice Principal and long-term SSA soldier, James Fu

Do you think the Chinese government will get involved in the Wa army issue?

Oh, they do not care for the Wa army. Really, because they just looking for the gas from Rakhine. You know the gas? In the mountain, not mountain, from the sea. The sea, Rakhine, from Bangladesh. They have some, how you call, natural resource. Gas. They will brought gas from Rakkan and through the Shan State to Yunnan and to Peking.

No way, not Beijing. Maybe Guangzhou.

Not Guangzhou. Ah, not Peking, maybe through Yunnan state to Shanghai. Maybe from Shanghai they will carry it to Beijing or some place. So they don't care for Wa, no no no. Before Wa is OK, important for China. Now, no use, nevermind.

Just in the past two weeks the vice president of Maing La, you know Maing La? Beside Wa, Maing La troop their vice president has been killed.

Really? Who?

The Burmese do that. Now they got a big problem. They angry angry now.

Do you think the SSA and Wa Army will ever get together?

Now they are very good friends now. They are waiting for fighting. If the Burmese come, nevermind, we are now OK, the same. If Wa start this fighting, he will be lost. He has to sacrifice too many things for this fighting.

Do you know how big the Burmese army is?

They are saying they have 300,000 Burmese soldiers. If Wa and Shan altogether they have just 50,000. But, with the person Burmese soldier is more. But we have to look at the fighting area. Fighting area is the higher mountain, and forest. Burmese soldier not skilled in mountain, not skilled in forest. They don't know which way to go. SSA Wa know everything. They spot a small path in mountain forests. But this time Burmese soldier, they said if they come to fight this time they will not use the soldier. First they will use the jet and mortar cannon. One-oh-five cannon. Now they have many weapons, they bought it from North Korea. They want to test their new weapon and find how effective it is. They want to test their new weapon so they want some fighting.

The election's coming—

The election no use. Even the referendum pass, no use. One village, one town ,one area, just one person represents all. 'OK, our village have 200 (he gestures on person filling out ballots) SPDC, SPDC good, good good.' Just one person do it. And this election the same. Finally the winner is SPDC. Finally everything, the SPDC is the winner, you trust this. No doubt. The winner is SPDC. Sure. SPDC the winner.

Some people don't care about election. No, some people they are very poor, they have to think about their daily life. What must they have to do, they just have to think about their job. No extra time they have to think about election. No use.

Do you think in the Shan cities like Taunggyi they have the same ideas about the election?

The same. All the same. All know the winner will be SPDC. They just play the trick, play the trick for the world. 'I already make election for the people, and finally the winner is me.'

The world must know and must not waste the time about the election. You want information you must NCGUB. You know NCGUB? NCGUB is, what we call NCGUB? Dr. Sang Win. Their organization, ah, how do I say? Now they plan to make the army that includes Burmese, Shan, Karen, Kachin, like that, they want to make together, all one army.

They who? The rebels?

Yeah, they want to do like the army under the president, Dr. Sang Win.

Can they cooperate enough to make it work?

I don't know. Last month they announce. To say is easy, but to do is very difficult. Even for one army, for one nation is too much trouble. Not the same ethnic group you have to get together is very difficult. And some are not the same in policy. Wa, communism. Shan are not communist. So how will they build a country? I cannot understand.

If the SPDC falls will all the rebel commanders give up their power for democracy?

Even I want freedom. I like freedom, I don't want any oppress, so I come here. I think here is be some freedom, but now I got no freedom. Now I'm like a small bird in a cage, I can't do nothing. Some, even some simple words I can't talk here. So you stay your life outside is better than us. You must understand about us, about our life. Some we cannot tell, we cannot talk, you know.

Do you mean you're not allowed?

I mean some word we cannot tell, we cannot tell the truth sometimes because we have to effect something behind us, we have to effect some shadow. Our imagine and our suggestion are not the same to other people. I stay too many place before and I know everything, I know everything. Sometimes I want to make like Diogeny. You know the story about Diogeny, in the text book? In the midday use a lantern and walk around the city to find the honest man. It's what I have to do here. 'Oh, what are you doing?' 'I'm looking for an honest man.'

In fact I like the army to stay the army. Don't come and interrupt in the village, in education. If you know you can come and give some idea. If you don't know about education then don't come and interrupt. You don't know about education and you come and order 'do like this do like this,' don't do that. If going on like this they lose so many people, so many soldier. So many soldier accept to stay. OK, no use, no hope left. Go away, better move.